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Dielectric heating between parallel plate electrodes

Posted Mar 9, 2012, 7:25 p.m. EST Low-Frequency Electromagnetics, Heat Transfer & Phase Change 19 Replies

Koray Palazoglu
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Hello all, I'm fairly new to Comsol. What I'm trying to do is model the heating of a dielectric in between two parallel plate electrodes at a frequency of 27.12 MHz. I would appreciate any suggestion as to which physics to use. Thanks in advance.
19 Replies Last Post Jan 20, 2016, 9:45 a.m. EST
Certified Consultant
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Posted: 1 decade ago Mar 26, 2012, 4:36 a.m. EDT
You can search for some papers for references. The electric currents and heat transfer are combined for this problem.
You can search for some papers for references. The electric currents and heat transfer are combined for this problem.
Koray Palazoglu
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Posted: 1 decade ago Mar 26, 2012, 4:51 a.m. EDT
Jianhui,

Thank you for your response. Do you know of any tutorials by any chance?

Jianhui, Thank you for your response. Do you know of any tutorials by any chance?
阳 焦
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 16, 2012, 12:38 a.m. EDT
You may need to try "Joule heating" model, which is just a combination of electric current and heat transfer.
You may need to try "Joule heating" model, which is just a combination of electric current and heat transfer.
Koray Palazoglu
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 16, 2012, 2:31 a.m. EDT
Yang, thank you for your message. I will try that.
Yang, thank you for your message. I will try that.
Lucie Bažantová
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 16, 2012, 3:27 a.m. EDT
Hallo, did you solve your problem? I have the same. Is it diathermy heating, isn´t it? I don´t know how to bring AC (27.12MHZ) to the plate capacitor.
Lucie
Hallo, did you solve your problem? I have the same. Is it diathermy heating, isn´t it? I don´t know how to bring AC (27.12MHZ) to the plate capacitor. Lucie
Koray Palazoglu
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 16, 2012, 3:37 a.m. EDT
Hello Lucie,

Not yet. My problem is actually RF heating of food placed between two plates. I will share with you in case I have any progress. In the mean time, good luck.

Hello Lucie, Not yet. My problem is actually RF heating of food placed between two plates. I will share with you in case I have any progress. In the mean time, good luck.
Lucie Bažantová
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 17, 2012, 1:23 p.m. EDT
Dear Koray,
maybe I find a solution. I used AC/DC - Electric current and Heat Trensfer - Bioheat. I modeled two plates (cooper) - the first I signed as Boundary Current Source - enter value of Surface current source, the second plate is ground. Then I used frequecny domain study step with frequency 27.12MHz. Between plates I have knee with appropriate material properties. In Bioheat you have to mark a biological tissue and Heat souce.

Maybe it could help you.
With regards Lucie
Dear Koray, maybe I find a solution. I used AC/DC - Electric current and Heat Trensfer - Bioheat. I modeled two plates (cooper) - the first I signed as Boundary Current Source - enter value of Surface current source, the second plate is ground. Then I used frequecny domain study step with frequency 27.12MHz. Between plates I have knee with appropriate material properties. In Bioheat you have to mark a biological tissue and Heat souce. Maybe it could help you. With regards Lucie
Koray Palazoglu
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 17, 2012, 4:27 p.m. EDT
Dear Lucie, thank you for your message. This definitely gives some ideas. How did your results look like? Did you get a resaonable temperature increase etc.?
Dear Lucie, thank you for your message. This definitely gives some ideas. How did your results look like? Did you get a resaonable temperature increase etc.?
Lucie Bažantová
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 18, 2012, 3:13 a.m. EDT
Hi Koray,
for heat transfer I used time dependent study type and after 10 minutes of application is temperature incerase something about 1.5degC (with surface current source 100A/m^2). It is ok for diathermy heating. It will change with the distance of electrodes.
Hi Koray, for heat transfer I used time dependent study type and after 10 minutes of application is temperature incerase something about 1.5degC (with surface current source 100A/m^2). It is ok for diathermy heating. It will change with the distance of electrodes.
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 24, 2012, 11:32 p.m. EDT
Sorry, I do not have any tutorials. The modeling work by Washington State U in food engineering may help you.
Sorry, I do not have any tutorials. The modeling work by Washington State U in food engineering may help you.
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 24, 2012, 11:33 p.m. EDT
Joule heating is different from RF heating.
Joule heating is different from RF heating.
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Posted: 1 decade ago Apr 24, 2012, 11:34 p.m. EDT
You can renfer to the models in COMSOL.
You can renfer to the models in COMSOL.
阳 焦
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Posted: 1 decade ago May 8, 2012, 5:09 p.m. EDT
It is different, but if you want to simulate the parallel plate capacitive heating, this is the only model you can use in COMSOL. The RF module can only be applied on microwave heating (with waveguide) case.
It is different, but if you want to simulate the parallel plate capacitive heating, this is the only model you can use in COMSOL. The RF module can only be applied on microwave heating (with waveguide) case.
SOhan
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Posted: 1 decade ago May 18, 2012, 1:04 p.m. EDT
You need AC/DC module to simualte RF heating in parallel plate electrodes system.
You need AC/DC module to simualte RF heating in parallel plate electrodes system.
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago May 18, 2012, 3:52 p.m. EDT
Hi

Take care about the underlying hypothesis that are used for ACDC and RF: basically E field wavelength much larger respectively much smaller than the dimension of the model.
When in between, both are more or less as wrong or as bad
Check the doc
--
Good luck
Ivar
Hi Take care about the underlying hypothesis that are used for ACDC and RF: basically E field wavelength much larger respectively much smaller than the dimension of the model. When in between, both are more or less as wrong or as bad Check the doc -- Good luck Ivar
Doooo Choi
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Posted: 1 decade ago Mar 6, 2013, 7:30 p.m. EST
Hi all,

If you want to heat the workloads at the RF range or microwave frequency, I want to recommed you this book 'Enginners' handbook of industrial microwave heating'.

I think that 'Joule's heat' is not the dominant factor in this situation, dipolar heat will be the main sorce of heating.


I'm also interested in parallel plate heating such as as dielectrics which are put on conductors.

I want to share your ideas and thesis.

Thanks.
Hi all, If you want to heat the workloads at the RF range or microwave frequency, I want to recommed you this book 'Enginners' handbook of industrial microwave heating'. I think that 'Joule's heat' is not the dominant factor in this situation, dipolar heat will be the main sorce of heating. I'm also interested in parallel plate heating such as as dielectrics which are put on conductors. I want to share your ideas and thesis. Thanks.
David Riddle
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Posted: 9 years ago Nov 19, 2015, 10:51 a.m. EST
Just came on line and see the question of RF heating. I am sure I can help, I have been testing with RF for several years with a wide range of dielectric materials. If you are still looking at the question let me know.
Just came on line and see the question of RF heating. I am sure I can help, I have been testing with RF for several years with a wide range of dielectric materials. If you are still looking at the question let me know.
Yakup Alpay
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Posted: 9 years ago Jan 17, 2016, 7:06 a.m. EST
Hello David
I have the same problem mentioned in the topic. Which one is more efficient to simulate parallel plate RF heating? Ansys HFSS coupled with transient thermal analysis? or using COMSOL RF or AC/DC module? Some friends above have said that RF module is convenient for microwave heating. so I am a bit confused.

Thank you in advance
Hello David I have the same problem mentioned in the topic. Which one is more efficient to simulate parallel plate RF heating? Ansys HFSS coupled with transient thermal analysis? or using COMSOL RF or AC/DC module? Some friends above have said that RF module is convenient for microwave heating. so I am a bit confused. Thank you in advance
Walter Frei COMSOL Employee

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Posted: 9 years ago Jan 20, 2016, 9:45 a.m. EST
Hello,

Regarding the topic of dielectric heating between parallel plate electrodes, you will find this article helpful:
www.comsol.com/blogs/study-radiofrequency-tissue-ablation-using-simulation/

as well as this example model of a parallel plate capacitor in the frequency domain:
www.comsol.com/model/frequency-domain-modeling-of-a-capacitor-12693

and also the Introduction to COMSOL Multiphysics, which shows how to couple an Electric Currents physics to Heat Transfer:
cdn.comsol.com/documentation/5.1.0.180/IntroductionToCOMSOLMultiphysics.pdf

Hello, Regarding the topic of dielectric heating between parallel plate electrodes, you will find this article helpful: http://www.comsol.com/blogs/study-radiofrequency-tissue-ablation-using-simulation/ as well as this example model of a parallel plate capacitor in the frequency domain: http://www.comsol.com/model/frequency-domain-modeling-of-a-capacitor-12693 and also the Introduction to COMSOL Multiphysics, which shows how to couple an Electric Currents physics to Heat Transfer: http://cdn.comsol.com/documentation/5.1.0.180/IntroductionToCOMSOLMultiphysics.pdf

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