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COMSOL 4.0 - Linear Extrusion

Posted Jul 21, 2010, 12:05 p.m. EDT Version 4.1, Version 4.2, Version 4.4 19 Replies

Mark Suchomel
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After learning version 3.5a, I was forced to jump into version 4.0 and have not had a good experience with the "upgrade." Making a linear extrusion from a 1D geometry to a 2D geometry in 3.5a was trivial and made perfect sense. What am I missing in 4.0?

I understand how to set up the source and destination vertices just fine. However, one glaring difference in 4.0 is the lack of ability to select which variable to map from one geometry to the next! Where do I tell it to map the variable "c1?" Is the chosen "operator name" a function for which I can call with an expression as its argument for what to map? I don't think this is true because it gives me an error stating unknown function found.

So, having the source and destination vertices set up, how do I tell 4.0 which variable I want to map?

Thanks for the help,

Mark
19 Replies Last Post Feb 24, 2015, 3:15 p.m. EST
Ruud Borger COMSOL Employee

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Posted: 1 decade ago Jul 21, 2010, 2:51 p.m. EDT

After learning version 3.5a, I was forced to jump into version 4.0 and have not had a good experience with the "upgrade." Making a linear extrusion from a 1D geometry to a 2D geometry in 3.5a was trivial and made perfect sense. What am I missing in 4.0?

I understand how to set up the source and destination vertices just fine. However, one glaring difference in 4.0 is the lack of ability to select which variable to map from one geometry to the next! Where do I tell it to map the variable "c1?" Is the chosen "operator name" a function for which I can call with an expression as its argument for what to map? I don't think this is true because it gives me an error stating unknown function found.

So, having the source and destination vertices set up, how do I tell 4.0 which variable I want to map?

Thanks for the help,

Mark


Hi Mark,

The operator you want to map should be given as argument to the function.

For instance, if you want to apply the linear extrusion to temperature, you enter:
linext1(T)
Where linext1 is the name of the Linear extrusion.

It's important to remember this, because the entire v4.0 functional interface works like this. Once you know and have gotten used to it, you will find the tremendous advantage that you don't have to define a function/extrusion/integration operater/whatever you want for every individual expression.



A quick remark on the expressions: we've switched sequence in the nomenclature.

For instance, in v3.5a, current density in x-direction was something like normJ.emdc, while in v4.0 it's: ec.normJ.
Now, the physics type (Electric Currents or ec) is in the front, followed by the quantity. This is similar to Java name ordering. If you're not sure about the exact name of a parameter, go to a plot group and look at the expressions you can plot - the names are listed there.

Best regards,

Ruud Borger
Comsol

[QUOTE] After learning version 3.5a, I was forced to jump into version 4.0 and have not had a good experience with the "upgrade." Making a linear extrusion from a 1D geometry to a 2D geometry in 3.5a was trivial and made perfect sense. What am I missing in 4.0? I understand how to set up the source and destination vertices just fine. However, one glaring difference in 4.0 is the lack of ability to select which variable to map from one geometry to the next! Where do I tell it to map the variable "c1?" Is the chosen "operator name" a function for which I can call with an expression as its argument for what to map? I don't think this is true because it gives me an error stating unknown function found. So, having the source and destination vertices set up, how do I tell 4.0 which variable I want to map? Thanks for the help, Mark [/QUOTE] Hi Mark, The operator you want to map should be given as argument to the function. For instance, if you want to apply the linear extrusion to temperature, you enter: linext1(T) Where linext1 is the name of the Linear extrusion. It's important to remember this, because the entire v4.0 functional interface works like this. Once you know and have gotten used to it, you will find the tremendous advantage that you don't have to define a function/extrusion/integration operater/whatever you want for every individual expression. A quick remark on the expressions: we've switched sequence in the nomenclature. For instance, in v3.5a, current density in x-direction was something like normJ.emdc, while in v4.0 it's: ec.normJ. Now, the physics type (Electric Currents or ec) is in the front, followed by the quantity. This is similar to Java name ordering. If you're not sure about the exact name of a parameter, go to a plot group and look at the expressions you can plot - the names are listed there. Best regards, Ruud Borger Comsol
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jul 22, 2010, 3:20 a.m. EDT
Hei Borger

Thanks for the explanations, I believe you should wright a couple of chapter on these changes in your doc, I see many frustrated users just because they do not understand these improvements (because I agree its more logical and just as easy if not better than 3.5a). Personally I was lucky having some free time to learn first, as normally my boss asks for results from the first second after any upgrade ;)

--
Good luck
Ivar
Hei Borger Thanks for the explanations, I believe you should wright a couple of chapter on these changes in your doc, I see many frustrated users just because they do not understand these improvements (because I agree its more logical and just as easy if not better than 3.5a). Personally I was lucky having some free time to learn first, as normally my boss asks for results from the first second after any upgrade ;) -- Good luck Ivar
Mark Suchomel
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jul 22, 2010, 3:01 p.m. EDT
Thanks for the help thus far, but I have further questions.

To be more clear, I am using the linear extrusion to pass values between two geometries (a 1D domain and a 2D boundary). These two geometries are in two different models (in the same file of course) because I could not find a way to 'add a geometry' to "Model 1." Assuming this is the correct setup, these are following questions:

To translate a variable, say T, from geometry A (1D) to geometry B (2D), I believe the linear extrusion must be created under the definitions for the model containing geometry A. The destination is then set to geometry B with the selected boundary. Once the verticies are matched up appropriately, the linear extrusion operator should be called with the variable T as an argument - linex1(T) - for example. If this is true, where does this calling of the extrusion function occur? If it occurs in geometry B, the error "Unknown Function" appears because the linear extrusion operator is not defined in this model. If a variable is set to the extrusion value, like T1 = linex1(T), and this new variable is called in geometry B, the error "Unknown Variable" appears.

I feel like I have it setup correctly, but cannot get it to work - either there is a way to create a second geometry that will clear this all up, or I have something fundamentally wrong.

Your input is appreciated. Thanks!

Mark
Thanks for the help thus far, but I have further questions. To be more clear, I am using the linear extrusion to pass values between two geometries (a 1D domain and a 2D boundary). These two geometries are in two different models (in the same file of course) because I could not find a way to 'add a geometry' to "Model 1." Assuming this is the correct setup, these are following questions: To translate a variable, say T, from geometry A (1D) to geometry B (2D), I believe the linear extrusion must be created under the definitions for the model containing geometry A. The destination is then set to geometry B with the selected boundary. Once the verticies are matched up appropriately, the linear extrusion operator should be called with the variable T as an argument - linex1(T) - for example. If this is true, where does this calling of the extrusion function occur? If it occurs in geometry B, the error "Unknown Function" appears because the linear extrusion operator is not defined in this model. If a variable is set to the extrusion value, like T1 = linex1(T), and this new variable is called in geometry B, the error "Unknown Variable" appears. I feel like I have it setup correctly, but cannot get it to work - either there is a way to create a second geometry that will clear this all up, or I have something fundamentally wrong. Your input is appreciated. Thanks! Mark
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jul 22, 2010, 4:43 p.m. EDT
Hi
you need to look at the model tree, it starts at root.mod1.etc and root.mod2.etc if you refer to an element far down in the tree from another branch, then you must give enough names.subname.etc to get the definition unambiguous (a la Java programming). So you might need to add some prefixes before your operator name to have it correctly defined in your current subnode.

I usually go to the results (if I have managed to solve it) and test the variable names from there

--
Good luck
Ivar
Hi you need to look at the model tree, it starts at root.mod1.etc and root.mod2.etc if you refer to an element far down in the tree from another branch, then you must give enough names.subname.etc to get the definition unambiguous (a la Java programming). So you might need to add some prefixes before your operator name to have it correctly defined in your current subnode. I usually go to the results (if I have managed to solve it) and test the variable names from there -- Good luck Ivar
Ruud Borger COMSOL Employee

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Posted: 1 decade ago Jul 23, 2010, 1:20 p.m. EDT

Hei Borger

Thanks for the explanations, I believe you should wright a couple of chapter on these changes in your doc, I see many frustrated users just because they do not understand these improvements (because I agree its more logical and just as easy if not better than 3.5a). Personally I was lucky having some free time to learn first, as normally my boss asks for results from the first second after any upgrade ;)

--
Good luck
Ivar


Thanks!

We are working on improving them.
[QUOTE] Hei Borger Thanks for the explanations, I believe you should wright a couple of chapter on these changes in your doc, I see many frustrated users just because they do not understand these improvements (because I agree its more logical and just as easy if not better than 3.5a). Personally I was lucky having some free time to learn first, as normally my boss asks for results from the first second after any upgrade ;) -- Good luck Ivar [/QUOTE] Thanks! We are working on improving them.
Pierre Infelta
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jul 27, 2010, 12:21 p.m. EDT
Hi,
I am using general extrusion and I could not get anything going...with a model prepared in 4.0a. I see you are having difficulties. and cannot get your model going.
After getting some help from support to convert a working 3.5a model to 4.0a, I look at various elements and realized that in model2, my physics interface had a name different that on my model 1 ( in my case acdc, i had ec for model 1 and ec2 for model2).
I renamed the physics interface ec (not obvious that this is allowed!!!)
Not enough because the dependent variable (in my case V, in yours T I presume) was named automatically V2 in the physics interface ( in your case I would presume T2).
So I rename the dependent variable in model2 , V.
This is all done very discreetly by the programme! a real trap. And the help is really not good enough.

Could be you overlooked this detail, I did for several days.....trying what I thought was everything possible.

Good luck.
Also you should get 4.0a and apply the hot fix on top of that.

Hi, I am using general extrusion and I could not get anything going...with a model prepared in 4.0a. I see you are having difficulties. and cannot get your model going. After getting some help from support to convert a working 3.5a model to 4.0a, I look at various elements and realized that in model2, my physics interface had a name different that on my model 1 ( in my case acdc, i had ec for model 1 and ec2 for model2). I renamed the physics interface ec (not obvious that this is allowed!!!) Not enough because the dependent variable (in my case V, in yours T I presume) was named automatically V2 in the physics interface ( in your case I would presume T2). So I rename the dependent variable in model2 , V. This is all done very discreetly by the programme! a real trap. And the help is really not good enough. Could be you overlooked this detail, I did for several days.....trying what I thought was everything possible. Good luck. Also you should get 4.0a and apply the hot fix on top of that.
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jul 28, 2010, 4:07 a.m. EDT
Hi

As I'm using the options parameters equation on, I mostly catch these effects by looking on the imported equations (then too you learn alot on how COMSOl expected us to use the different nodes)

--
Good luck
Ivar
Hi As I'm using the options parameters equation on, I mostly catch these effects by looking on the imported equations (then too you learn alot on how COMSOl expected us to use the different nodes) -- Good luck Ivar
Geoff Olynyk
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Posted: 1 decade ago Oct 18, 2011, 4:57 p.m. EDT
I'm a little bit frustrated here. Why did I have to come to this forum to learn that I have to pass the variable I want to map as an *argument* to the *extrusion variable* operator?

Please, please, please, put some use cases in your documentation, guys! These forums aren't really active enough to be a good substitute for the documentation (as opposed to, say, Matlab).
I'm a little bit frustrated here. Why did I have to come to this forum to learn that I have to pass the variable I want to map as an *argument* to the *extrusion variable* operator? Please, please, please, put some use cases in your documentation, guys! These forums aren't really active enough to be a good substitute for the documentation (as opposed to, say, Matlab).
Jeff Hiller COMSOL Employee

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Posted: 1 decade ago Oct 18, 2011, 5:44 p.m. EDT
You can find that stated in the User's Guide manual, version 4.2, page 152 (That's the first page of the section on coupling operators!). There are countless examples illustrating the use of coupling operators in the Model Library.
You can find that stated in the User's Guide manual, version 4.2, page 152 (That's the first page of the section on coupling operators!). There are countless examples illustrating the use of coupling operators in the Model Library.
Geoff Olynyk
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Posted: 1 decade ago Oct 18, 2011, 6:39 p.m. EDT
Hi Jean-Francois. Thanks for your post. I shouldn't have posted in such haste. I understand that the thing to do is to look through the Model Library and see how things are done that way. Also, I was looking in the HTML documentation, not the PDF User's Guide. I am (slowly) learning the 4.x series!

What I was really looking for was the bit given on page 163 of the PDF user's guide, where it actually describes what exact syntax you would type in to use the coupling operators.
Hi Jean-Francois. Thanks for your post. I shouldn't have posted in such haste. I understand that the thing to do is to look through the Model Library and see how things are done that way. Also, I was looking in the HTML documentation, not the PDF User's Guide. I am (slowly) learning the 4.x series! What I was really looking for was the bit given on page 163 of the PDF user's guide, where it actually describes what exact syntax you would type in to use the coupling operators.
Harry Nizard
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jun 7, 2012, 8:54 a.m. EDT
Hello All. I have a similar problem:

My domain is a 3D bloc (L*W*H), I calculate a variable C (x, y, z) in this domain.

I need to define a parameter Cs (x, y) on one face of the bloc (z=0) as the integration of C along the normal axis (z) of that face. Cs (x, y) = $(from z=0 to z=H) C(x, y, z) dz

Cs will be used in the calculation of C.

So should I define an integration? an Extrusion? is it possible?
I never understood extrusions. I though I did once, and I used it, but then I forgot, I think it is really uninuitive unclear function of COmsol:

Thanks for any help!!!
Hello All. I have a similar problem: My domain is a 3D bloc (L*W*H), I calculate a variable C (x, y, z) in this domain. I need to define a parameter Cs (x, y) on one face of the bloc (z=0) as the integration of C along the normal axis (z) of that face. Cs (x, y) = $(from z=0 to z=H) C(x, y, z) dz Cs will be used in the calculation of C. So should I define an integration? an Extrusion? is it possible? I never understood extrusions. I though I did once, and I used it, but then I forgot, I think it is really uninuitive unclear function of COmsol: Thanks for any help!!!
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jun 7, 2012, 9:43 a.m. EDT
Hi

It's rather the projection operator you should use that integrates over the last variable (if you want an average, divide by the total line length

I have attached a simple example hereby but its 4.2a ;)

--
Good luck
Ivar
Hi It's rather the projection operator you should use that integrates over the last variable (if you want an average, divide by the total line length I have attached a simple example hereby but its 4.2a ;) -- Good luck Ivar
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jun 7, 2012, 9:43 a.m. EDT


--
Good luck
Ivar
-- Good luck Ivar
Harry Nizard
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jun 7, 2012, 10:04 a.m. EDT
Hello Ivar.

Thanks a lot! Your help is very much appreciated.
So in this case I should define Cs=genproj1(C) right?

BTW Why is it integration order 4?

PS: thanks for the information and solving my problem, but in the general case, how do I know if I need a projection or an extrusion, linear or general....? is it like 3D -> 2D = projection and 2D ->3D = extrusion? I mean what is the reason to choose those names? for me in real life, a projector takes a 2D picture and projects it in a 3D domain, pretty much the same as an extrusion, which translates a 2D shape to form a 3D volume... I'm not a native english speaker but those words are not clear to me...
Hello Ivar. Thanks a lot! Your help is very much appreciated. So in this case I should define Cs=genproj1(C) right? BTW Why is it integration order 4? PS: thanks for the information and solving my problem, but in the general case, how do I know if I need a projection or an extrusion, linear or general....? is it like 3D -> 2D = projection and 2D ->3D = extrusion? I mean what is the reason to choose those names? for me in real life, a projector takes a 2D picture and projects it in a 3D domain, pretty much the same as an extrusion, which translates a 2D shape to form a 3D volume... I'm not a native english speaker but those words are not clear to me...
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago Jun 8, 2012, 12:51 a.m. EDT
Hi

you can use both (generic or specific), but their set-up is slightly different, in one you use the geometry (points/vertex) in the 2nd you use the generic coordinate system topdefine the orientations and the integrand.

Note: both of them perform an integration hence you add a *1[m] on the units from the ds term. This is OK for flux or density variables, for global variables when you want an average output, you need to normalise by the integration length.

Projection and extrusion are opposite (in some sens) operations. The best is to carefully read the doc (2-3 times ;) it has taken me quite some time to catch the essence behind these operators, but I have still not found a simpler way to explain how it works, and I still make small examples as the previous posted one to check that I get the right operator and that I use it correctly

--
Good luck
Ivar
Hi you can use both (generic or specific), but their set-up is slightly different, in one you use the geometry (points/vertex) in the 2nd you use the generic coordinate system topdefine the orientations and the integrand. Note: both of them perform an integration hence you add a *1[m] on the units from the ds term. This is OK for flux or density variables, for global variables when you want an average output, you need to normalise by the integration length. Projection and extrusion are opposite (in some sens) operations. The best is to carefully read the doc (2-3 times ;) it has taken me quite some time to catch the essence behind these operators, but I have still not found a simpler way to explain how it works, and I still make small examples as the previous posted one to check that I get the right operator and that I use it correctly -- Good luck Ivar
Sepideh Afshar
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Posted: 1 decade ago Aug 19, 2013, 10:04 p.m. EDT
Hi,

I read the discussion above, about unknown variable error. I have the same problem till I change the models and interfaces (in my case, General form PDE) names to a same one. Am I allowed to do that?

Thanks,
Hi, I read the discussion above, about unknown variable error. I have the same problem till I change the models and interfaces (in my case, General form PDE) names to a same one. Am I allowed to do that? Thanks,
Trevor Davis
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Posted: 10 years ago Sep 4, 2014, 8:43 p.m. EDT
I am having a similar problem as described above. I have two geometries drawn, one is a 2D geometry, another is 1D. I am trying to take the electric potential distribution from the boundary of the 2D geometry and transfer that to the 1D geometry with a general extrusion. In the 1D geometry the potential will be changed by another PDE and transfered back to the 2D geometry with another general extrusions.

The boundary from the 2D geometry and the 1D geometry have exactly the same shape and length. The destination of the extrusion from the 2D geometry is : comp2.x and the destination of the 1D geometry is: comp1.x

The program tries to run and I get:
Internal error in error handling
-Message: coordevalfail

Any suggestions???

Thanks!
Trevor
I am having a similar problem as described above. I have two geometries drawn, one is a 2D geometry, another is 1D. I am trying to take the electric potential distribution from the boundary of the 2D geometry and transfer that to the 1D geometry with a general extrusion. In the 1D geometry the potential will be changed by another PDE and transfered back to the 2D geometry with another general extrusions. The boundary from the 2D geometry and the 1D geometry have exactly the same shape and length. The destination of the extrusion from the 2D geometry is : comp2.x and the destination of the 1D geometry is: comp1.x The program tries to run and I get: Internal error in error handling -Message: coordevalfail Any suggestions??? Thanks! Trevor
Zb Wang
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Posted: 9 years ago Feb 24, 2015, 10:06 a.m. EST


After learning version 3.5a, I was forced to jump into version 4.0 and have not had a good experience with the "upgrade." Making a linear extrusion from a 1D geometry to a 2D geometry in 3.5a was trivial and made perfect sense. What am I missing in 4.0?

I understand how to set up the source and destination vertices just fine. However, one glaring difference in 4.0 is the lack of ability to select which variable to map from one geometry to the next! Where do I tell it to map the variable "c1?" Is the chosen "operator name" a function for which I can call with an expression as its argument for what to map? I don't think this is true because it gives me an error stating unknown function found.

So, having the source and destination vertices set up, how do I tell 4.0 which variable I want to map?

Thanks for the help,

Mark


Hi Mark,

The operator you want to map should be given as argument to the function.

For instance, if you want to apply the linear extrusion to temperature, you enter:
linext1(T)
Where linext1 is the name of the Linear extrusion.

It's important to remember this, because the entire v4.0 functional interface works like this. Once you know and have gotten used to it, you will find the tremendous advantage that you don't have to define a function/extrusion/integration operater/whatever you want for every individual expression.



A quick remark on the expressions: we've switched sequence in the nomenclature.

For instance, in v3.5a, current density in x-direction was something like normJ.emdc, while in v4.0 it's: ec.normJ.
Now, the physics type (Electric Currents or ec) is in the front, followed by the quantity. This is similar to Java name ordering. If you're not sure about the exact name of a parameter, go to a plot group and look at the expressions you can plot - the names are listed there.

Best regards,

Ruud Borger
Comsol



Hi,

I have a problem with 4.4 when using the Linear Extrusion.
in the Linear Extrusion, the rectangle plane in Geom1 is wanted to be extracted to a same size rectangle in Geom2.
My problem is that in the source Vertices , 4 points can be selected while in the Destination Vertices only 3 points could be selected.

Please can you show me why? or my fault?
[QUOTE] [QUOTE] After learning version 3.5a, I was forced to jump into version 4.0 and have not had a good experience with the "upgrade." Making a linear extrusion from a 1D geometry to a 2D geometry in 3.5a was trivial and made perfect sense. What am I missing in 4.0? I understand how to set up the source and destination vertices just fine. However, one glaring difference in 4.0 is the lack of ability to select which variable to map from one geometry to the next! Where do I tell it to map the variable "c1?" Is the chosen "operator name" a function for which I can call with an expression as its argument for what to map? I don't think this is true because it gives me an error stating unknown function found. So, having the source and destination vertices set up, how do I tell 4.0 which variable I want to map? Thanks for the help, Mark [/QUOTE] Hi Mark, The operator you want to map should be given as argument to the function. For instance, if you want to apply the linear extrusion to temperature, you enter: linext1(T) Where linext1 is the name of the Linear extrusion. It's important to remember this, because the entire v4.0 functional interface works like this. Once you know and have gotten used to it, you will find the tremendous advantage that you don't have to define a function/extrusion/integration operater/whatever you want for every individual expression. A quick remark on the expressions: we've switched sequence in the nomenclature. For instance, in v3.5a, current density in x-direction was something like normJ.emdc, while in v4.0 it's: ec.normJ. Now, the physics type (Electric Currents or ec) is in the front, followed by the quantity. This is similar to Java name ordering. If you're not sure about the exact name of a parameter, go to a plot group and look at the expressions you can plot - the names are listed there. Best regards, Ruud Borger Comsol [/QUOTE] Hi, I have a problem with 4.4 when using the Linear Extrusion. in the Linear Extrusion, the rectangle plane in Geom1 is wanted to be extracted to a same size rectangle in Geom2. My problem is that in the source Vertices , 4 points can be selected while in the Destination Vertices only 3 points could be selected. Please can you show me why? or my fault?
Walter Frei COMSOL Employee

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Posted: 9 years ago Feb 24, 2015, 3:15 p.m. EST
Hi Zb,

This question is getting a little bit far removed from the original posting. Your latest posting would be best suited for a new, unique, thread. Your question will be easier to address if you also attach a simple, representative, model file that can be used for illustrative purposes.
We do also suggest that you upgrade to COMSOL version 5.0 at your convenience.

Best Regards,
Walter
Hi Zb, This question is getting a little bit far removed from the original posting. Your latest posting would be best suited for a new, unique, thread. Your question will be easier to address if you also attach a simple, representative, model file that can be used for illustrative purposes. We do also suggest that you upgrade to COMSOL version 5.0 at your convenience. Best Regards, Walter

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